I have reserved to myself 144,000 who will not bow to the image
They have tore down thine altars O father, they have built an image of BAAL
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Church and State Order take 2: Defiance of the Church and State order that defy's the constitution of the United States
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On February 16th, 2010, I reported in my blog that federal marshalls were raiding a small church in Tenessee on behalf of the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists.
http://www.elijah144.com/apps/blog/show/2884255-breaking-news-church-and-state-order
Federal Marshalls were on hand on this date destroying signs and removing articles. See ABC news footage here:
http://www.wbbjtv.com/Church%20Signs%20Come%20Down.html
Church and state is known to us as Seventh Day Adventists as a woman riding a beast in prophecy(Revelation 17) or a woman commiting fornication with the kings of the earth(Revelation 18:2) which leads to a calling out of Gods people to come out of the fallen church(Revelation 18:4). Here we have seen a woman riding a beast and going after former brethren using the kings of the earth like as Jezebel in the days of Elijah or Israel to Christ when they said "We have no king but Caesar".
For the members of this little church in Tenessee to give up the name "Seventh Day Adventist" is like being told by the Catholic Church to give up the name "Christian" because they own it and bringing the power of States against them to force them to do so.
After the lettering was removed, a member of the church went out and repainted the signs "Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church".
ABC news again covered the event of the repainted signs. Praise God.
http://www.wbbjtv.com/Church%20Sign%20Returns.html
The belief is the name is God given, and the state has no right over that name. According to the prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventist church this name is to be kept till the close of probation on the world and they are never to be ashamed of it even if it should be dragged through the mud by the General Conference leaders.
"Our institutions have taken a name which sets forth the character of our faith, and of this name we are NEVER to be ashamed. I have been shown that this name means much, and in adopting it we have followed the light given us from heaven...This distinctive banner is to be borne through the world to the CLOSE OF PROBATION." (Ellen White MS 15, 1896)
So what we have is a standoff. The church and state union is saying "Give up the name".
The word of God says to this small church :
1. Church and State or a woman riding a beast (Come out of her my people)(Rev 18:1-4)
And after this.....
2. If the words of Ellen White are inspired "keep the name Seventh Day Adventist till the close of probation".
So this small church to stand by their conscience cannot rightfully give up the name unless they were to disobey one of the above 2 commands from God.
Shortly after the death of Jesus some men were brought before courts and told to stop preaching in the name of Jesus.
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
This is the choice to obey God or men. Praise God that they are standing up for what they believe.
"...the only position the State can take, and have the approval of God, is to guard the rights of every individual, permitting no oppression to come upon any one because of religious belief." ST February 27, 1912
I think the State is overstepping it's bounds. Is anyone going to speak up?
"If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is DOING NOTHING IN CASE OF AN EMERGENCY. Indifference and neutrality in a RELIGIOUS CRISIS is regarded of God as a grievous CRIME and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God." (Ellen White 3T 281.)
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Pastor Chick
01:39 PM on April 06, 2010
Hello David,
Thank you for agreeing with us on this one. Since you appear to be saying much of what we taught you during your exposure to us, it would seem that you might wish to be really unified with us as Christ prayed in John 17--our "church creed."
Remember that "independent ministries" have no place in the Kingdom of YAH. He is preparing "a people"--that is His Church, and they are the target of the dragon's ire during the last moments of earth's history.
For SDAs, time has almost run out. Soon we shall be compelled to say, "Too late, too late."
May YAH's best be yours,
Pastor "Chick"
http://adventistry.to/
Thank you for agreeing with us on this one. Since you appear to be saying much of what we taught you during your exposure to us, it would seem that you might wish to be really unified with us as Christ prayed in John 17--our "church creed."
Remember that "independent ministries" have no place in the Kingdom of YAH. He is preparing "a people"--that is His Church, and they are the target of the dragon's ire during the last moments of earth's history.
For SDAs, time has almost run out. Soon we shall be compelled to say, "Too late, too late."
May YAH's best be yours,
Pastor "Chick"
http://adventistry.to/
Pastor Chick says...
Hello David,
Thank you for agreeing with us on this one. Since you appear to be saying much of what we taught you during your exposure to us, it would seem that you might wish to be really unified with us as Christ prayed in John 17--our "church creed."
Remember that "independent ministries" have no place in the Kingdom of YAH. He is preparing "a people"--that is His Church, and they are the target of the dragon's ire during the last moments of earth's history.
For SDAs, time has almost run out. Soon we shall be compelled to say, "Too late, too late."
May YAH's best be yours,
Pastor "Chick"
http://adventistry.to/
Hi Pastor Chick,
John 17 refers to the unity the brethren have in spirit. And if we are one as the father and son are one, then praise God. I have to say that I was just shown Gods? word when he showed me truths such as the the trinity, and righteousness by faith, church and state etc.
I knew the method of study was proper and God taught me all this through his son Jesus Christ. Noone else. I do wonder why you take the glory for teaching me. Again this adds to my questions. I don?t know if you remember but we(I and Kevin) had plenty of questions in regards to what you said one day. If you remember you said ?I brought this message? and a couple other ?I??s with it. And you were pretty mad at us for our questioning what we felt was self exaltation . Me and Kevin were upset and we discussed the matter as brothers. We just got baptized, we kind of knew the church wouldn?t believe it and we wanted to solve this with you.
Kevin just started studying Gods word and walking in it as he received it. Obviously we had a lot of tendencies towards the world since we were so knew to the word. That?s not an excuse, but much we didn?t know. I was quite surprised to be dis-fellowshipped since I so desired to do God?s will.
But what could I say but be shocked because of what I saw in you. I desired answers from Gods word showing me where you learned your principles and why you were doing what you were doing. For some reason I wanted to be wrong about what I saw in you. But then after you lied to the tow truck driver, and then moved the van into a position to antagonize my wife in front of many witnesses I had to ask questions such as ?Why are you doing this?? She was starting to accept the truth until she said ?that?s a hypocrite?. That was a major turning point in her.
I was devastated that you would act like that. I didn?t want to believe my eyes. My flesh was telling me to lie to myself. But I knew I had to try to reason with you, because that is God?s desire. ?Come let us reason together?. But you didn?t have any of it, and said ?Take it before the church.? Really, I didn?t want to tell the church how you acted because I didn?t think that would help the church members much.
I didn?t want to do that at all. I knew there was laundry to be aired and I didn?t think that you wanted me to do that. So I tried to talk to you one on one. It seemed to me that there were some thoughts and suggestions put forth to Kevin that my intention was evil when I only sought that unity as in John 17.
Would you like to go before your church again Pastor Chick? Or would you rather personally answer me? I have no intention on making you look bad before everyone, and I tried to avoid it the last time as well. It almost brings tears to my eyes the souls that may have been lost because of that incident. But much more, how many other incidences have their been? I realize I?ve made mistakes and misjudgments as well based on ignorance and even willful in times past. I wish I could take it all back and I have every intention on trusting God and not letting these types of incidences happen ever again.
You?re not infallible. There is one who is infallible. I?ve only talked to a few people about you. And the problem always is with your spirit. Kevin said he lied his face off to get over the border to Tennessee with you after you dis-fellowshipped me and that your words to him were ?I couldn?t have did it better myself?. And I said ?I don?t believe you?. And his wife Amy was right there to answer me saying ?no, no it?s true, those are his exact words.? There are so many other things such as hearing about Luke hanging at the arcade and playing shooter games on the internet etc. Can?t say I didn?t do the same thing though when I first started studying Gods word. I did try to change to less violent games at first, however I realized that it was deeper than that. That?s a bit shocking for a pastor to do though.
Continued...
So are you telling me that this is God?s church. Pastor of everything I?ve seen division over and over again. And really no attempt by anyone in your church to reach out to me. That?s truly sad. Why not? Where is the love? Where is that seeking of the lost sheep. It seems that my attempts to contact you haven?t been welcome at all. You blocked me. Then I tried to talk to church members and they tell me I?m entering the back door when I haven?t even sought to become a member of your church.
When I was a member, there was always this push of fear rather than the gospel and Gods love and what he suffered and gave.
Your right the door of probation is about to close. Not just on Seventh Day Adventists but the world. I truly feel for Luke and I?m not sure what?s going on with David. One of the reasons I was drawn to the church was because I saw that it seemed that you stood up for principle. Again, I appreciate the re-drawing of the signs and I hope this message of yours to me is an attempt to make things right.
There is no fear in love, so to come on here and try to spread fear is not the way to get me to unite with you. Instead share the love of God. If you do, you will already be united with me. It has nothing to do with a baptismal certificate. And it?s not at all like I desire to be separated from the conference or from any church. But I would never compromise for that kind of oneness that calls for a compromise. Nor do I believe we should go forth as indepents. However, I am indepent from the conference, I am not independent of Christ.
I?m not seeking to Lord over a bunch of people, but I?m seeking brothers and sisters that we may be one even as the father and son are one. If you truly seek it and I hope you do let?s talk man.
There are many of us who are coming to unity of the faith and true knowledge of the son of God. And we?re picking up the pieces that nothing be lost with regards to the CSDA church. That?ll include the truths that you are adhering to as well.
Truly, I have much more to say. I?m not hiding. I really thought you were after blocking me and everything. But thanks for popping out. I?d love to see you again, but this time as a brother and not as one who seeks to Lord over me and instill fear and division.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
When I was a member, there was always this push of fear rather than the gospel and Gods love and what he suffered and gave.
Your right the door of probation is about to close. Not just on Seventh Day Adventists but the world. I truly feel for Luke and I?m not sure what?s going on with David. One of the reasons I was drawn to the church was because I saw that it seemed that you stood up for principle. Again, I appreciate the re-drawing of the signs and I hope this message of yours to me is an attempt to make things right.
There is no fear in love, so to come on here and try to spread fear is not the way to get me to unite with you. Instead share the love of God. If you do, you will already be united with me. It has nothing to do with a baptismal certificate. And it?s not at all like I desire to be separated from the conference or from any church. But I would never compromise for that kind of oneness that calls for a compromise. Nor do I believe we should go forth as indepents. However, I am indepent from the conference, I am not independent of Christ.
I?m not seeking to Lord over a bunch of people, but I?m seeking brothers and sisters that we may be one even as the father and son are one. If you truly seek it and I hope you do let?s talk man.
There are many of us who are coming to unity of the faith and true knowledge of the son of God. And we?re picking up the pieces that nothing be lost with regards to the CSDA church. That?ll include the truths that you are adhering to as well.
Truly, I have much more to say. I?m not hiding. I really thought you were after blocking me and everything. But thanks for popping out. I?d love to see you again, but this time as a brother and not as one who seeks to Lord over me and instill fear and division.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Hello again,
As "Seventh Day Adventists," we know the truth about the human organism. There is the man of flesh, and there is the man of Spirit. Those who know the truth about God as our pioneers did do not accept any of the erroneous teachings of the Trinity.
Humans must have a body to be alive. The "spirit" cannot "live" without a body. This is true of the physical existence of mankind.
The Savior said, "Ye must be born again." Of course, we understand that no one enters the mother's womb again. As non-trinitarian Adventists, we know that this "birth" is "spiritual" in nature and also requires a "body" to "live." ""So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12:5
When we are born in the flesh, we receive a "birth certificate." It certifies our physical existence, giving all of our particulars, including the names of our biological father and mother. As "Seventh Day Adventists," we know that those who are "born of the Spirit" also receive a "birth certificate." That document is our baptismal vow which gives the relevant particulars regarding our spiritual birth. Interestingly, it includes our spiritual Father's name, along with "the mother of us all."
One might argue that many have been "saved" without any such "spiritual birth certificate." However, the light given to the "remnant messenger" presents a sound case to indicate Heaven's requirements for a "sealed covenant" or "spiritual birth certificate" when applied to the 144,000.
(continued in next post)
As "Seventh Day Adventists," we know the truth about the human organism. There is the man of flesh, and there is the man of Spirit. Those who know the truth about God as our pioneers did do not accept any of the erroneous teachings of the Trinity.
Humans must have a body to be alive. The "spirit" cannot "live" without a body. This is true of the physical existence of mankind.
The Savior said, "Ye must be born again." Of course, we understand that no one enters the mother's womb again. As non-trinitarian Adventists, we know that this "birth" is "spiritual" in nature and also requires a "body" to "live." ""So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12:5
When we are born in the flesh, we receive a "birth certificate." It certifies our physical existence, giving all of our particulars, including the names of our biological father and mother. As "Seventh Day Adventists," we know that those who are "born of the Spirit" also receive a "birth certificate." That document is our baptismal vow which gives the relevant particulars regarding our spiritual birth. Interestingly, it includes our spiritual Father's name, along with "the mother of us all."
One might argue that many have been "saved" without any such "spiritual birth certificate." However, the light given to the "remnant messenger" presents a sound case to indicate Heaven's requirements for a "sealed covenant" or "spiritual birth certificate" when applied to the 144,000.
(continued in next post)
(continued from previous post)
"Only when the Church is composed of pure, unselfish members, can it fulfill God's purpose. Too much hasty work is done in adding names to the church roll. Serious defects are seen in the characters of some who join the church. Those who admit them say, We will first get them into the church, and then reform them. But this is a mistake. The very first work to be done is the work of reform. Pray with them, talk with them, but do not allow them to unite with God's people in church relationship until they give decided evidence that the Spirit of God is working on their hearts." RH May 21, 1901
" Men may turn from one doctrine to another, and yet know nothing of the meaning of the words, "A new heart also will I give you." Accepting new theories merely does not bring new life into the soul, even though the church that is entered may be established on the true foundation. A connection with the church does not take the place of conversion. To have one's name placed on the church roll is not of the least value unless the heart is truly changed." RH March 29, 1906
"Those who are truly converted are called to do a work that requires money and consecration. The obligation that binds us to place our names on the church roll holds us responsible to work for God to the utmost of our ability. He calls for undivided service, for the entire devotion of heart, soul, mind, and strength. Christ has brought us into church capacity that He may engage and engross all our capabilities in devoted service for the salvation of souls. Anything short of this is opposition to the work." 6T 447, 448
"The lives of professing Christians who do not live the Christ life are a mockery to religion. Every one whose name is registered
on the church roll is under obligation to represent Christ by revealing the inward adorning of a meek and quiet spirit. They are to be His witnesses, making known the advantages of walking and working as Christ has given them example." 9T 22
"Baptism may be repeated over and over again, but of itself it has no power to change the human heart. The heart must be united with Christ's heart, the will must be submerged in his will, the mind must become one with his mind, the thoughts must be brought into captivity to him. A man may be baptized, and his name be placed on the church roll, and yet his heart be unchanged. Hereditary and cultivated tendencies may still work evil in his character." RH Sept. 18, 1900
"God calls for intelligent Christians, for men and women who are filled with the knowledge of his will. He calls for men and women who by their good works show that the truth has brought about a change in their lives. The religion that consists in professions merely is but a pretence. Those whose union with Christ ends with the writing of their names on the church roll are not channels of light." SW December 25, 1902
"Another danger that threatens the church, is individual independence. There is a manifest disregard of the prayer of Christ, that his brethren should be one, as he and the Father were one. Let the church, to a man, feel its responsibility to preserve harmony of thought and action. Let every member seek to be in accord with the truth, and with the brethren. Let our prayers go forth from unfeigned lips that the union for which our Lord prayed, may be found among his people. All who are united in church capacity,may be of one mind, of one heart, of one judgment, that Satan may not take any fresh advantage of the followers of Christ. We have one faith, one Lord, one God and Father, who is above all, and in you all; then let there be a glorifying of God with one mouth, and one spirit. Where there is union there is strength. United we stand, divided we fall. It is the special, declared plan of the enemy of Christ and man, to break up the church into independent factions. He will seek to lead one after another to arise, filled with his own selfish purposes and plans, and each will strive to carry out the suggestions of the adversary, but the hopes of such will certainly be met with disappointment." RH July 10, 1888
Spiritual "Seventh Day Adventists" can easily glean "truth as it is in YAHSHUA" from what has been cited above.
I pray that you will reconsider your brand of "spiritualism" in it's true light as the "end of all things" comes quickly. Eternity is a long time.
Prayerfully,
Pastor "Chick" McGill
http://adventistry.to/
"Only when the Church is composed of pure, unselfish members, can it fulfill God's purpose. Too much hasty work is done in adding names to the church roll. Serious defects are seen in the characters of some who join the church. Those who admit them say, We will first get them into the church, and then reform them. But this is a mistake. The very first work to be done is the work of reform. Pray with them, talk with them, but do not allow them to unite with God's people in church relationship until they give decided evidence that the Spirit of God is working on their hearts." RH May 21, 1901
" Men may turn from one doctrine to another, and yet know nothing of the meaning of the words, "A new heart also will I give you." Accepting new theories merely does not bring new life into the soul, even though the church that is entered may be established on the true foundation. A connection with the church does not take the place of conversion. To have one's name placed on the church roll is not of the least value unless the heart is truly changed." RH March 29, 1906
"Those who are truly converted are called to do a work that requires money and consecration. The obligation that binds us to place our names on the church roll holds us responsible to work for God to the utmost of our ability. He calls for undivided service, for the entire devotion of heart, soul, mind, and strength. Christ has brought us into church capacity that He may engage and engross all our capabilities in devoted service for the salvation of souls. Anything short of this is opposition to the work." 6T 447, 448
"The lives of professing Christians who do not live the Christ life are a mockery to religion. Every one whose name is registered
on the church roll is under obligation to represent Christ by revealing the inward adorning of a meek and quiet spirit. They are to be His witnesses, making known the advantages of walking and working as Christ has given them example." 9T 22
"Baptism may be repeated over and over again, but of itself it has no power to change the human heart. The heart must be united with Christ's heart, the will must be submerged in his will, the mind must become one with his mind, the thoughts must be brought into captivity to him. A man may be baptized, and his name be placed on the church roll, and yet his heart be unchanged. Hereditary and cultivated tendencies may still work evil in his character." RH Sept. 18, 1900
"God calls for intelligent Christians, for men and women who are filled with the knowledge of his will. He calls for men and women who by their good works show that the truth has brought about a change in their lives. The religion that consists in professions merely is but a pretence. Those whose union with Christ ends with the writing of their names on the church roll are not channels of light." SW December 25, 1902
"Another danger that threatens the church, is individual independence. There is a manifest disregard of the prayer of Christ, that his brethren should be one, as he and the Father were one. Let the church, to a man, feel its responsibility to preserve harmony of thought and action. Let every member seek to be in accord with the truth, and with the brethren. Let our prayers go forth from unfeigned lips that the union for which our Lord prayed, may be found among his people. All who are united in church capacity,may be of one mind, of one heart, of one judgment, that Satan may not take any fresh advantage of the followers of Christ. We have one faith, one Lord, one God and Father, who is above all, and in you all; then let there be a glorifying of God with one mouth, and one spirit. Where there is union there is strength. United we stand, divided we fall. It is the special, declared plan of the enemy of Christ and man, to break up the church into independent factions. He will seek to lead one after another to arise, filled with his own selfish purposes and plans, and each will strive to carry out the suggestions of the adversary, but the hopes of such will certainly be met with disappointment." RH July 10, 1888
Spiritual "Seventh Day Adventists" can easily glean "truth as it is in YAHSHUA" from what has been cited above.
I pray that you will reconsider your brand of "spiritualism" in it's true light as the "end of all things" comes quickly. Eternity is a long time.
Prayerfully,
Pastor "Chick" McGill
http://adventistry.to/
Hello Pastor Chick,
You said: ?One might argue that many have been "saved" without any such "spiritual birth certificate." However, the light given to the "remnant messenger" presents a sound case to indicate Heaven's requirements for a "sealed covenant" or "spiritual birth certificate" when applied to the 144,000.?
I was wondering if you could clarify a little more in regards to what you are trying to say. I noticed you quoted Ms. White below this statement mentioning the ?Church role? several times. These are all excellent quotes, and I believe in regards to a church role the movement taking place now is very similar to that which took place shortly before 1844.
?Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, hasten from place to place to proclaim the warning from Heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the message will be given. Miracles are wrought, the sick are healed, and signs and wonders follow the believers. Satan also works with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Thus the inhabitants of the earth are brought to take their stand.
The message will be carried, as was the midnight cry of 1844, not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God.?(4SP 429-30)
Thousands of voices all over the earth. This is how it is going to come to pass. So what about the church roll here or in 1844. Will these 1000?s of voices all be on the CSDA church roll. I believe what you said about the body without the spirit being dead. The church is to be one in spirit and I believe they are at the time of this final work before the time of trouble. There are several principles we can apply and a great shaking will narrow down Gods church when the persecution really hits home.
Has Gods church always been an organization? NO. Does God work without organization? NO. The church in heaven unites with the enfeebled and defective looking church on earth to accomplish the fathers will. Elijah picked up 12 stones scattered over the earth and arranged them into an altar for the Lord. In the same sense I believe the Elijah Message will unite the 12 tribes of Israel into the 144,000 spiritually that they all may be one even as the father and son are one.
I really appreciate this last quote and I couldn?t agree with you more. Though I think time and place need to be considered with regards to the church roll. We need to consider what the church roll is or means to us today.
"Another danger that threatens the church, is individual independence. There is a manifest disregard of the prayer of Christ, that his brethren should be one, as he and the Father were one. Let the church, to a man, feel its responsibility to preserve harmony of thought and action. Let every member seek to be in accord with the truth, and with the brethren. Let our prayers go forth from unfeigned lips that the union for which our Lord prayed, may be found among his people. All who are united in church capacity,may be of one mind, of one heart, of one judgment, that Satan may not take any fresh advantage of the followers of Christ. We have one faith, one Lord, one God and Father, who is above all, and in you all; then let there be a glorifying of God with one mouth, and one spirit. Where there is union there is strength. United we stand, divided we fall. It is the special, declared plan of the enemy of Christ and man, to break up the church into independent factions. He will seek to lead one after another to arise, filled with his own selfish purposes and plans, and each will strive to carry out the suggestions of the adversary, but the hopes of such will certainly be met with disappointment." RH July 10, 1888
Cont...
You said: ?One might argue that many have been "saved" without any such "spiritual birth certificate." However, the light given to the "remnant messenger" presents a sound case to indicate Heaven's requirements for a "sealed covenant" or "spiritual birth certificate" when applied to the 144,000.?
I was wondering if you could clarify a little more in regards to what you are trying to say. I noticed you quoted Ms. White below this statement mentioning the ?Church role? several times. These are all excellent quotes, and I believe in regards to a church role the movement taking place now is very similar to that which took place shortly before 1844.
?Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, hasten from place to place to proclaim the warning from Heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the message will be given. Miracles are wrought, the sick are healed, and signs and wonders follow the believers. Satan also works with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Thus the inhabitants of the earth are brought to take their stand.
The message will be carried, as was the midnight cry of 1844, not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God.?(4SP 429-30)
Thousands of voices all over the earth. This is how it is going to come to pass. So what about the church roll here or in 1844. Will these 1000?s of voices all be on the CSDA church roll. I believe what you said about the body without the spirit being dead. The church is to be one in spirit and I believe they are at the time of this final work before the time of trouble. There are several principles we can apply and a great shaking will narrow down Gods church when the persecution really hits home.
Has Gods church always been an organization? NO. Does God work without organization? NO. The church in heaven unites with the enfeebled and defective looking church on earth to accomplish the fathers will. Elijah picked up 12 stones scattered over the earth and arranged them into an altar for the Lord. In the same sense I believe the Elijah Message will unite the 12 tribes of Israel into the 144,000 spiritually that they all may be one even as the father and son are one.
I really appreciate this last quote and I couldn?t agree with you more. Though I think time and place need to be considered with regards to the church roll. We need to consider what the church roll is or means to us today.
"Another danger that threatens the church, is individual independence. There is a manifest disregard of the prayer of Christ, that his brethren should be one, as he and the Father were one. Let the church, to a man, feel its responsibility to preserve harmony of thought and action. Let every member seek to be in accord with the truth, and with the brethren. Let our prayers go forth from unfeigned lips that the union for which our Lord prayed, may be found among his people. All who are united in church capacity,may be of one mind, of one heart, of one judgment, that Satan may not take any fresh advantage of the followers of Christ. We have one faith, one Lord, one God and Father, who is above all, and in you all; then let there be a glorifying of God with one mouth, and one spirit. Where there is union there is strength. United we stand, divided we fall. It is the special, declared plan of the enemy of Christ and man, to break up the church into independent factions. He will seek to lead one after another to arise, filled with his own selfish purposes and plans, and each will strive to carry out the suggestions of the adversary, but the hopes of such will certainly be met with disappointment." RH July 10, 1888
Cont...
I believe the brethren need to hear this and accept this as much as you do. We need to be united and not on some individual road thinking that we can work apart from Gods last called out people. Submission works all ways with the brethren and if someone doesn?t fully agree on something that is no reason for separation or ex-communication. Honesty is a key as well. Not that I?m trying to be personal, but like you once said ?We can?t sweep the dirt under the rug, it?s still there?. My question to you is ?Will you continue to sweep it under the rug??
You said:
?I pray that you will reconsider your brand of "spiritualism" in it's true light as the "end of all things" comes quickly. Eternity is a long time.?
What I think your trying to say, and correct me if I?m wrong, but I think your trying to say that anyone who is not part of the CSDA church does not have the spirit of God as you believe the CSDA church is the body of Christ and the body without the spirit is dead. In response I don?t believe you are correct on that one:
?God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. ?Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them? (Matt. 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ?s church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church? (The Upward Look, p. 315).
"To the end of time, the presence of the Spirit is to abide with the true church." Acts of the Apostles, p. 55
Gods presence is with his church still and it doesn?t have to be a national establishment, so I hope will reconsider labeling those who are not part of the CSDA establishment as ?Spiritualists? if that was your intent.
Look forward to your responce. Yours in his service, David.
You said:
?I pray that you will reconsider your brand of "spiritualism" in it's true light as the "end of all things" comes quickly. Eternity is a long time.?
What I think your trying to say, and correct me if I?m wrong, but I think your trying to say that anyone who is not part of the CSDA church does not have the spirit of God as you believe the CSDA church is the body of Christ and the body without the spirit is dead. In response I don?t believe you are correct on that one:
?God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. ?Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them? (Matt. 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ?s church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church? (The Upward Look, p. 315).
"To the end of time, the presence of the Spirit is to abide with the true church." Acts of the Apostles, p. 55
Gods presence is with his church still and it doesn?t have to be a national establishment, so I hope will reconsider labeling those who are not part of the CSDA establishment as ?Spiritualists? if that was your intent.
Look forward to your responce. Yours in his service, David.
Reply
Qinael
06:20 AM on April 17, 2010
Hi Dave,
I came across the discussion here and was a bit surprised to see my name mentioned once or twice. You know, a year or so ago I met your brother in British Columbia when sharing information on the lawsuit at the Camp Hope camp meeting there. He had some questions about your disfellowship - it appeared he felt that we had caused you to become spiritually unstable, and he told me that you had informed him that I would be the one to ask about the details of why you were disfellowshipped from the Church.
I found that rather strange really - I didn't elect to share any details with him, and it seemed that you yourself would know full-well the reasons for it and be capable of explaining them. Regardless, the report you gave was true - I do happen to recall the details of it (and have a transcript, actually).
That said, I am rather surprised to see you say that you didn't want to tell the Church how Pastor Chick had acted since you felt it would affect them badly. I certainly do not recall any such misgivings on your part at the time. In fact, the primary reason for your disfellowship was based on your overly strong desire - which every person in that meeting stated a discomfort with - to 'hurry up and get the discussion to all the things Pastor Chick has done wrong.'
Kevin, who you also mention in your rather personal replies, was another ready target of your self-preserving blame. Every sin you professed to repent of was a byline to a larger accusation you had for someone else; and when this was pointed out to you as a false repentance wrought of a wrong spirit, you began posting 1 John 1:9 and accusing us of not acknowledging it.
It's apparent that you still have a firm hold of that spirit (or it has a firm hold on you) from your posts here. I believe that if you wish to start taking up personal accusations about the past in a public forum to defame people, you had best be prepared to reap the consequences. I assure you - from all records I have, Pastor Chick is not the one who will "look bad" from a public discussion of the facts involved with your history with us, and every CSDA member present at that public meeting agreed unanimously - including those you apparently "feel sorry for."
I suggest you drop your facade of attempting to with-hold information for the sake of other's reputations, all the while peppering your post with countless insinuations and accusations to undermine that very thing. Facts be known, you've never had any qualms about spreading distorted opinions and gossip whatsoever, and your replies here only serve to underline that. How you can manage to include "Not that I'm trying to be personal" in a post after two consecutive posts of nothing but personal statements is rather amazing. It appears you've come into the trait common in the world of stating you are not doing something as a means to cover doing exactly that right then and there. Adding "Not to complain" before a complaint makes it no less a complaint - it merely makes it a dishonest one. The same is true of gospel order.
(Cont..)
I came across the discussion here and was a bit surprised to see my name mentioned once or twice. You know, a year or so ago I met your brother in British Columbia when sharing information on the lawsuit at the Camp Hope camp meeting there. He had some questions about your disfellowship - it appeared he felt that we had caused you to become spiritually unstable, and he told me that you had informed him that I would be the one to ask about the details of why you were disfellowshipped from the Church.
I found that rather strange really - I didn't elect to share any details with him, and it seemed that you yourself would know full-well the reasons for it and be capable of explaining them. Regardless, the report you gave was true - I do happen to recall the details of it (and have a transcript, actually).
That said, I am rather surprised to see you say that you didn't want to tell the Church how Pastor Chick had acted since you felt it would affect them badly. I certainly do not recall any such misgivings on your part at the time. In fact, the primary reason for your disfellowship was based on your overly strong desire - which every person in that meeting stated a discomfort with - to 'hurry up and get the discussion to all the things Pastor Chick has done wrong.'
Kevin, who you also mention in your rather personal replies, was another ready target of your self-preserving blame. Every sin you professed to repent of was a byline to a larger accusation you had for someone else; and when this was pointed out to you as a false repentance wrought of a wrong spirit, you began posting 1 John 1:9 and accusing us of not acknowledging it.
It's apparent that you still have a firm hold of that spirit (or it has a firm hold on you) from your posts here. I believe that if you wish to start taking up personal accusations about the past in a public forum to defame people, you had best be prepared to reap the consequences. I assure you - from all records I have, Pastor Chick is not the one who will "look bad" from a public discussion of the facts involved with your history with us, and every CSDA member present at that public meeting agreed unanimously - including those you apparently "feel sorry for."
I suggest you drop your facade of attempting to with-hold information for the sake of other's reputations, all the while peppering your post with countless insinuations and accusations to undermine that very thing. Facts be known, you've never had any qualms about spreading distorted opinions and gossip whatsoever, and your replies here only serve to underline that. How you can manage to include "Not that I'm trying to be personal" in a post after two consecutive posts of nothing but personal statements is rather amazing. It appears you've come into the trait common in the world of stating you are not doing something as a means to cover doing exactly that right then and there. Adding "Not to complain" before a complaint makes it no less a complaint - it merely makes it a dishonest one. The same is true of gospel order.
(Cont..)
Reply
Qinael
06:21 AM on April 17, 2010
That being said, regarding your brief foray into the realm of Scripture and SoP, I do have some comments on your most recent post. It appears that you are claiming that there is either no need for an organized and visible body of believers because they are united in spirit, or that the organized and visible body is something that will happen at some point future, because you do not believe Yahweh has brought about such an organization in the 20+ years since the Adventist denomination has been fallen.
I would be very interested in seeing what Scriptures or even Ellen White quotes, exactly, you are basing this view upon. It seems that the whole of your contention with the CSDA Church continues to be your personal hatred (I am sure you dislike the word, but I find no falsehood in it based on your actions - public and private) for Pastor Chick, as you continue to make heavy use of our writings on all relevant points.
That said, you gave one quote regarding the Church being where the humble few are gathered. That is rather selectively chosen from Manuscript 1250, in MR17 p. 81 and was quoted in the Upward Look in compilation form. The actual context of the quote, you will find, is regarding believers in Nimes, France who were accepting the Sabbath despite being counted as odd and singular by the world. The letter speaks primarily and extensively of the manner of Sundaykeeping and Sabbathkeeping in the area, and how alone these believers would be in their new endeavor.
While the quote speaks of physical separation and loneliness, it has nothing to do with the concept of separation from an organized body - such an idea is completely absurd, particularly when it is considered that the letter was written by Mrs. White during a missionary journey to bring these people *into* the Church.
Men may be separate and alone despite being in the Church, yes. We expect this in fact, and are presently experiencing it on a very real level. Yet despite being in little companies, we are not of those of whom it is written "one believing this thing, another that" - nowhere in Inspiration will you find justification for the notion you are setting forth, that there may be a unity of spirit without a unity of the body. That is spiritualism in it's plainest form - a living spirit without a living and physical body - and I suspect this is what the prior posts were making reference to.
The idea that John 17 speaks only to spiritual unity is positively unsupportable from the inspired writings. I will quote one such instance - and it is only for the sake of brevity that I am not posting this entire chapter of the Testimonies:
(Cont...)
I would be very interested in seeing what Scriptures or even Ellen White quotes, exactly, you are basing this view upon. It seems that the whole of your contention with the CSDA Church continues to be your personal hatred (I am sure you dislike the word, but I find no falsehood in it based on your actions - public and private) for Pastor Chick, as you continue to make heavy use of our writings on all relevant points.
That said, you gave one quote regarding the Church being where the humble few are gathered. That is rather selectively chosen from Manuscript 1250, in MR17 p. 81 and was quoted in the Upward Look in compilation form. The actual context of the quote, you will find, is regarding believers in Nimes, France who were accepting the Sabbath despite being counted as odd and singular by the world. The letter speaks primarily and extensively of the manner of Sundaykeeping and Sabbathkeeping in the area, and how alone these believers would be in their new endeavor.
While the quote speaks of physical separation and loneliness, it has nothing to do with the concept of separation from an organized body - such an idea is completely absurd, particularly when it is considered that the letter was written by Mrs. White during a missionary journey to bring these people *into* the Church.
Men may be separate and alone despite being in the Church, yes. We expect this in fact, and are presently experiencing it on a very real level. Yet despite being in little companies, we are not of those of whom it is written "one believing this thing, another that" - nowhere in Inspiration will you find justification for the notion you are setting forth, that there may be a unity of spirit without a unity of the body. That is spiritualism in it's plainest form - a living spirit without a living and physical body - and I suspect this is what the prior posts were making reference to.
The idea that John 17 speaks only to spiritual unity is positively unsupportable from the inspired writings. I will quote one such instance - and it is only for the sake of brevity that I am not posting this entire chapter of the Testimonies:
(Cont...)
Reply
Qinael
06:22 AM on April 17, 2010
"God is leading out a people to stand in perfect unity upon the platform of eternal truth. Christ gave Himself to the world that He might "purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This refining process is designed to purge the church from all unrighteousness and the spirit of discord and contention, that they may build up instead of tear down, and concentrate their energies on the great work before them. God designs that His people should all come into the unity of the faith. The prayer of the Christ just prior to His crucifixion was that His disciples might be one, even as He was one with the Father, that the world might believe that the Father had sent Him. This most touching and wonderful prayer reaches down the ages, even to our day; for His words were: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word."
How earnestly should the professed followers of Christ seek to answer this prayer in their lives. Many do not realize the sacredness of church relationship and are loath to submit to restraint and discipline. Their course of action shows that they exalt their own judgment above that of the united church, and they are not careful to guard themselves lest they encourage a spirit of opposition to its voice. Those who hold responsible positions in the church may have faults in common with other people and may err in their decisions; but notwithstanding this, the church of Christ on earth has given to them an authority that cannot be lightly esteemed. Christ, after His resurrection, delegated power unto His church, saying: "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." [4T 17]
The very beginning paragraph of the letter is of utmost relevance:
"Dear Brethren: As all the different members of the human system unite to form the entire body, and each performs its office in obedience to the intelligence that governs the whole, so the members of the church of Christ should be united in one symmetrical body, subject to the sanctified intelligence of the whole." [4T 16]
Regarding 1844, there was a time when this was an applicable comparison. This time was over 20 years ago, before Yahweh mandated the existence of the CSDA Church. Just as at the forming of the Adventist church, there are those who refuse to join, who distrust unity, who wish their own kingdoms. Very few Millerites became Seventh-day Adventists, and quite sadly the same is true today.
How earnestly should the professed followers of Christ seek to answer this prayer in their lives. Many do not realize the sacredness of church relationship and are loath to submit to restraint and discipline. Their course of action shows that they exalt their own judgment above that of the united church, and they are not careful to guard themselves lest they encourage a spirit of opposition to its voice. Those who hold responsible positions in the church may have faults in common with other people and may err in their decisions; but notwithstanding this, the church of Christ on earth has given to them an authority that cannot be lightly esteemed. Christ, after His resurrection, delegated power unto His church, saying: "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." [4T 17]
The very beginning paragraph of the letter is of utmost relevance:
"Dear Brethren: As all the different members of the human system unite to form the entire body, and each performs its office in obedience to the intelligence that governs the whole, so the members of the church of Christ should be united in one symmetrical body, subject to the sanctified intelligence of the whole." [4T 16]
Regarding 1844, there was a time when this was an applicable comparison. This time was over 20 years ago, before Yahweh mandated the existence of the CSDA Church. Just as at the forming of the Adventist church, there are those who refuse to join, who distrust unity, who wish their own kingdoms. Very few Millerites became Seventh-day Adventists, and quite sadly the same is true today.
Reply
David Barron
03:38 PM on April 17, 2010
Hi Luke,
I don't remember saying anything to my brother about asking you anything. My brother felt I was spiritually unstable because I believe that the conference has apostacized, I don't accept the Trinity, and I also believe in victory over all known sin. I've been more than willing to discuss it with my brother. I think when I do discuss it with him he feels unsettled in his faith however. But I've always been willing to discuss it. I haven't concealed anything to anyone. In fact I'm more than willing to admit that I made alot of mistakes unknowingly. However, I was not a straight-faced liar as was Pastor Chick. to the tow truck driver, and the people at the border among others. This kind of lieing is normally seen in those who are not Christian. And so because I asked for answers you assumed I was not repentant for my mistakes. God is going to judge me on this Luke. I know that my questions are because of the open sins commited by Chick and why the church ignored this in front of so many witnesses. This wasn't just a bunch of people with different stories.
I tried to talk to Chick about it. He was unwilling. I was just learning the word and I'm sure you could see 100's of flaws in my character which I had yet to even be aware of. I had much to learn and still do. Also about not wanting to bring it before the church. I didn't . I attempted to talk to Pastor Chick, but he already prepared something against me without any attempt to come to me and talk to me face to face completely ignoring gospel order. And he blocked me and wouldn't discuss anything with me.
You have a transcript of what transpired. Do you have a transcript of my letters as well documenting the events that transpired. Did you ever read them? I was in tears because of the hypocrisy. I couldn't believe it. You weren't there and trust me Pastor Chick is not going to look good if we were to go over this. Despite what you think. Think about it, Pastor Chick has yet to speak openly to me on this matter. He always sends someone else.
Also, where is Kevin today? Why did he leave you guys. I've talked to him about it. I wasn't there when he left. From what I understand all of you don't live up to any of the light that you have. You hang out at arcades, play shooter games online and your apparently the Pastor of the church.
Also another accusation you said to me about me "hating Pastor Chick". I don't hate him, and like I said, I would like to talk to him as a brother. That's a terribly false accusation and I don't know how you think you can judge my heart. I may not like some of the things Pastor Chick did, but I was more than open to discuss it with him in hopes of being united. But remember Luke, there was nor seems to be no desire on Pastor Chicks behalf to want to discuss what happened with me. I have MSN if you want to discuss it. I'll discuss it with all of you in an audio conference if you'd like.
I don't remember saying anything to my brother about asking you anything. My brother felt I was spiritually unstable because I believe that the conference has apostacized, I don't accept the Trinity, and I also believe in victory over all known sin. I've been more than willing to discuss it with my brother. I think when I do discuss it with him he feels unsettled in his faith however. But I've always been willing to discuss it. I haven't concealed anything to anyone. In fact I'm more than willing to admit that I made alot of mistakes unknowingly. However, I was not a straight-faced liar as was Pastor Chick. to the tow truck driver, and the people at the border among others. This kind of lieing is normally seen in those who are not Christian. And so because I asked for answers you assumed I was not repentant for my mistakes. God is going to judge me on this Luke. I know that my questions are because of the open sins commited by Chick and why the church ignored this in front of so many witnesses. This wasn't just a bunch of people with different stories.
I tried to talk to Chick about it. He was unwilling. I was just learning the word and I'm sure you could see 100's of flaws in my character which I had yet to even be aware of. I had much to learn and still do. Also about not wanting to bring it before the church. I didn't . I attempted to talk to Pastor Chick, but he already prepared something against me without any attempt to come to me and talk to me face to face completely ignoring gospel order. And he blocked me and wouldn't discuss anything with me.
You have a transcript of what transpired. Do you have a transcript of my letters as well documenting the events that transpired. Did you ever read them? I was in tears because of the hypocrisy. I couldn't believe it. You weren't there and trust me Pastor Chick is not going to look good if we were to go over this. Despite what you think. Think about it, Pastor Chick has yet to speak openly to me on this matter. He always sends someone else.
Also, where is Kevin today? Why did he leave you guys. I've talked to him about it. I wasn't there when he left. From what I understand all of you don't live up to any of the light that you have. You hang out at arcades, play shooter games online and your apparently the Pastor of the church.
Also another accusation you said to me about me "hating Pastor Chick". I don't hate him, and like I said, I would like to talk to him as a brother. That's a terribly false accusation and I don't know how you think you can judge my heart. I may not like some of the things Pastor Chick did, but I was more than open to discuss it with him in hopes of being united. But remember Luke, there was nor seems to be no desire on Pastor Chicks behalf to want to discuss what happened with me. I have MSN if you want to discuss it. I'll discuss it with all of you in an audio conference if you'd like.
Reply
Qinael
04:56 PM on April 17, 2010
Hi Dave,
I think the content of your recent post illustrates very well where exactly your focus is when it comes to the CSDA Church - entirely on your dissatisfaction with Pastor Chick. That said, the factual problems continue to abound.
For example, while you claim that Pastor Chick refuses to discuss anything with you, I show a text record of where he specifically and publicly asked you to deal with your problems. You refused, and blamed this on others. While you claim that there was not only one witness, I have a text record showing that you are, in fact, the only witness making claims even vaguely similar to the ones you have made, and are making.
You seem to be of the false impression that saying the words "I have repented and am willing to learn" are the same as actually being the thing. I recall we had great difficulty ever extracting a specific confession from you, in accordance with Mrs. White's counsel - you would say, as you do now, "I have made mistakes and I repent. Now there is a fault Pastor Chick needs to repent of."
Yet you could not be induced to name one specific mistake that you were not currently and actively manifesting, and showed a very resentful and hostile attitude when it was requested of you. You seem to believe that claiming an openness and willingness to discuss is, also, the same as being justified in truth.
There was a time, you recall, when Satan himself attempted to come before the Father and "discuss" his sins for repentance. Unfortunately, your profession has been very similar in nature. What you call "willing to discuss," every individual who has been exposed has seen as "demanding to comply." Your idea of discussion is not one of learning, but one of a required submission to and repentance of whatever sins you have come to believe one individual to be guilty of. Your questions have no real motive of learning but of entrapment for the sake of forcing a confession - and thus are false. You are unwilling to consider "unity" without first "making Pastor Chick pay for what he did to you." Whether real or imagined, this approach to perceived wrongs is entirely antiChrist.
As opposed to a brother, you set yourself up as a judge. When sins were pointed to you, you justified yourself by claiming that others did the same. You have never once manifest a genuine sorrow for your own sin, but felt that forgiveness was your birthright and those who did not give it based on your mere words in that very instance were to be met with the same hostility and accusatory spirit you now show in every blog post in this discussion - though perhaps you have learned to polish it slightly by adding apologies about how you aren't *really* trying to make people look bad while doing it.
I think the content of your recent post illustrates very well where exactly your focus is when it comes to the CSDA Church - entirely on your dissatisfaction with Pastor Chick. That said, the factual problems continue to abound.
For example, while you claim that Pastor Chick refuses to discuss anything with you, I show a text record of where he specifically and publicly asked you to deal with your problems. You refused, and blamed this on others. While you claim that there was not only one witness, I have a text record showing that you are, in fact, the only witness making claims even vaguely similar to the ones you have made, and are making.
You seem to be of the false impression that saying the words "I have repented and am willing to learn" are the same as actually being the thing. I recall we had great difficulty ever extracting a specific confession from you, in accordance with Mrs. White's counsel - you would say, as you do now, "I have made mistakes and I repent. Now there is a fault Pastor Chick needs to repent of."
Yet you could not be induced to name one specific mistake that you were not currently and actively manifesting, and showed a very resentful and hostile attitude when it was requested of you. You seem to believe that claiming an openness and willingness to discuss is, also, the same as being justified in truth.
There was a time, you recall, when Satan himself attempted to come before the Father and "discuss" his sins for repentance. Unfortunately, your profession has been very similar in nature. What you call "willing to discuss," every individual who has been exposed has seen as "demanding to comply." Your idea of discussion is not one of learning, but one of a required submission to and repentance of whatever sins you have come to believe one individual to be guilty of. Your questions have no real motive of learning but of entrapment for the sake of forcing a confession - and thus are false. You are unwilling to consider "unity" without first "making Pastor Chick pay for what he did to you." Whether real or imagined, this approach to perceived wrongs is entirely antiChrist.
As opposed to a brother, you set yourself up as a judge. When sins were pointed to you, you justified yourself by claiming that others did the same. You have never once manifest a genuine sorrow for your own sin, but felt that forgiveness was your birthright and those who did not give it based on your mere words in that very instance were to be met with the same hostility and accusatory spirit you now show in every blog post in this discussion - though perhaps you have learned to polish it slightly by adding apologies about how you aren't *really* trying to make people look bad while doing it.
Reply
Qinael
04:56 PM on April 17, 2010
From that day to now, your focus has been on the sins of others to the exclusion of your own. As I have said, your repentances mark a "byline" to the greater accusation - "Yes, I did something wrong, but the REAL problem lies with [...] and needs to be pointed out now".
And after all of this, when those involved tire of hearing your repeated accusations and proud spirit, you then have an accusation when they cease communicating with you on these matters and claim they are "sweeping it under the rug" and imply they are not open and honest about the matter, or do not love you by not reaching out to continue hearing your tirade against an individual in the Church.
There came a time when Yahshua ceased debating with Satan in the heavenly courts. Throughout your history with us, from your disfellowship to now, you have played the role of the "accuser of the brethren." Perhaps you dislike this title as well - but take a moment to read your posts here. I find little content in them, myself, aside from accusations against Pastor Chick. What little doctrinal content you have has been answered relatively briefly and without reply on your part.
So it would appear the matter sets at this: Your complaint against the CSDA Church can be summarized entirely by the fact that you have some very, very strong dislike for one individual in it. You feel this individual sinned despite no other witnesses seeing such either at the time or in the many years since. Because no one else saw what you claim to have seen, and because the individual in question cannot confess of something they themselves are unconvinced they did, you have concluded that the Church is a false one and therefore, some bizarre and unBiblical idea of a "spiritual body" must be how Yahweh is leading His people.
Now as far as your offers, I continue to have no desire whatsoever to hear you rail against Pastor Chick. I have heard it once, and it was more than enough for my taste. The Church as a whole found that your accusations were baseless and that you had a terribly wrong spirit in your approach to the matter. It is obvious this has not only remained unrepented of but is still the major driving force in your dealings.
As you have completely disregarded the prior quote from Mrs. White in every particular regarding Church authority and relationship, I cannot see any value in a continued discussion with you - least of all about how angry you are at Pastor Chick. "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses." (1 Tim. 5:19) Now, if you want to publicly discuss something that has actual relevance to our message, I may consider that. I believe I have said all that is necessary regarding your public remarks about private matters, however. I only pray that your false pretenses do not deceive actually innocent souls. I suspect many may find it very hard to believe that you would actually make up so many accounts as you have of being mistreated, when the text records stand unabated to show exactly what transpired.
And after all of this, when those involved tire of hearing your repeated accusations and proud spirit, you then have an accusation when they cease communicating with you on these matters and claim they are "sweeping it under the rug" and imply they are not open and honest about the matter, or do not love you by not reaching out to continue hearing your tirade against an individual in the Church.
There came a time when Yahshua ceased debating with Satan in the heavenly courts. Throughout your history with us, from your disfellowship to now, you have played the role of the "accuser of the brethren." Perhaps you dislike this title as well - but take a moment to read your posts here. I find little content in them, myself, aside from accusations against Pastor Chick. What little doctrinal content you have has been answered relatively briefly and without reply on your part.
So it would appear the matter sets at this: Your complaint against the CSDA Church can be summarized entirely by the fact that you have some very, very strong dislike for one individual in it. You feel this individual sinned despite no other witnesses seeing such either at the time or in the many years since. Because no one else saw what you claim to have seen, and because the individual in question cannot confess of something they themselves are unconvinced they did, you have concluded that the Church is a false one and therefore, some bizarre and unBiblical idea of a "spiritual body" must be how Yahweh is leading His people.
Now as far as your offers, I continue to have no desire whatsoever to hear you rail against Pastor Chick. I have heard it once, and it was more than enough for my taste. The Church as a whole found that your accusations were baseless and that you had a terribly wrong spirit in your approach to the matter. It is obvious this has not only remained unrepented of but is still the major driving force in your dealings.
As you have completely disregarded the prior quote from Mrs. White in every particular regarding Church authority and relationship, I cannot see any value in a continued discussion with you - least of all about how angry you are at Pastor Chick. "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses." (1 Tim. 5:19) Now, if you want to publicly discuss something that has actual relevance to our message, I may consider that. I believe I have said all that is necessary regarding your public remarks about private matters, however. I only pray that your false pretenses do not deceive actually innocent souls. I suspect many may find it very hard to believe that you would actually make up so many accounts as you have of being mistreated, when the text records stand unabated to show exactly what transpired.
Reply
David Barron
11:28 PM on April 17, 2010
Hi Luke,
I don't know if you enjoy this, but you'll notice I tried to message you on your MSN several times. Maybe you like making a scene like this. I don't know. But you certainly want to be confrontational here. Sorry, I don't have time to type long essays on all of the issues you brought up. Seems your unwilling to discuss this issue in a more civilized manner.
I'm sorry, but if this is the conversation you wish to have, I have no interest in it. I'm gonna let God be my judge and regarding your accusation that I set myself up as a judge. You need to reread what you wrote. Half the stuff you said about me you made up and then shot down. You accuse me of so many things. Wow..
It's dishonest. Like look at the type of things you say """"You are unwilling to consider "unity" without first "making Pastor Chick pay for what he did to you." """
What's wrong with you man? I didn't say this....Then after you accuse me of saying this, you go on to say "this is the spirit of antichrist". Wow, way to set up a straw man and knock it down. Learn to quote me honestly and stop judging my intent. Luke I think you need to seriously look at your approach before you will ever reach anyone. I'm not gonna discuss this with you anymore.
These are not my words...
"Yes, I did something wrong, but the REAL problem lies with [...] and needs to be pointed out now".
Do you like to put words in peoples mouths. You did this so many times above, quoting me but yet not using a real quote. My discussion with you is done, because this type of discussion is bearing false witness and it's wicked. Sorry, we couldn't talk more. I'll allow God to judge between me and you. I couldn't be a member of this church for the simple fact that this is not the gospel. ... Learn to be honest.....
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
There is nothing good coming out of this discussion.
I don't know if you enjoy this, but you'll notice I tried to message you on your MSN several times. Maybe you like making a scene like this. I don't know. But you certainly want to be confrontational here. Sorry, I don't have time to type long essays on all of the issues you brought up. Seems your unwilling to discuss this issue in a more civilized manner.
I'm sorry, but if this is the conversation you wish to have, I have no interest in it. I'm gonna let God be my judge and regarding your accusation that I set myself up as a judge. You need to reread what you wrote. Half the stuff you said about me you made up and then shot down. You accuse me of so many things. Wow..
It's dishonest. Like look at the type of things you say """"You are unwilling to consider "unity" without first "making Pastor Chick pay for what he did to you." """
What's wrong with you man? I didn't say this....Then after you accuse me of saying this, you go on to say "this is the spirit of antichrist". Wow, way to set up a straw man and knock it down. Learn to quote me honestly and stop judging my intent. Luke I think you need to seriously look at your approach before you will ever reach anyone. I'm not gonna discuss this with you anymore.
These are not my words...
"Yes, I did something wrong, but the REAL problem lies with [...] and needs to be pointed out now".
Do you like to put words in peoples mouths. You did this so many times above, quoting me but yet not using a real quote. My discussion with you is done, because this type of discussion is bearing false witness and it's wicked. Sorry, we couldn't talk more. I'll allow God to judge between me and you. I couldn't be a member of this church for the simple fact that this is not the gospel. ... Learn to be honest.....
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
There is nothing good coming out of this discussion.
Reply
David Barron
11:05 AM on April 18, 2010
Also, by the way there were witnesses, my wife, Bradley, Andy, the tow truck driver. you guys didn't want to hear them because they weren't members of the 9 member church. However there were only 3 members present. Me, Chick and Kevin. So the only witness you would have heard would have been Kevin, and Kevin was coaxed into writing the letter by Chick and he'll tell you that himself today. Those weren't even his words in the letter. Those were written in fear. Kevin lived in fear from the time I got disfellowshipped until the time you disfellowshipped him. Kevin knew there was something wrong with Chick. Ask him.
So anyway, the point is that there were witnesses however in order to be a recognized witness by you they had to be a member of the church. Unfortunately there were no members of the church present there. So that's another straw man you set up to shoot down.
So anyway, the point is that there were witnesses however in order to be a recognized witness by you they had to be a member of the church. Unfortunately there were no members of the church present there. So that's another straw man you set up to shoot down.
Reply
Arishiono
01:23 PM on May 09, 2011
Всем доброго времени суток !
вот лето начинается, пожары на дачах и в лесу, хотелось бы поинтересоваться где можно пройти курсы ПТМ ?
вот лето начинается, пожары на дачах и в лесу, хотелось бы поинтересоваться где можно пройти курсы ПТМ ?
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