I have reserved to myself 144,000 who will not bow to the image
They have tore down thine altars O father, they have built an image of BAAL
Reply To A letter saying the Trinity is biblical
Hi David,
I’ve spent some time reading your thoughts and investigating your web site material and the Truth Seekers’ site and see that you are promoting a conservative view of Seventh Day Adventism including the teachings of Ellen White. (I understand that group in
Hi J....,
I’ll respond in blue. You’ve said a lot here. I do appreciate the time you’ve taken. That is the noble thing to do as we are seeking to come to unity of the faith and true knowledge of the son of God.[Eph 4:13].
I guess you could say conservative. Living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God is probably as conservative as it gets, not of ourselves, but his word is the power[Heb 4:12].
It is noble of you to search things out. If a message is coming our way we should make every effort to hear it out. The bible tells us to “Test the spirits” ”To the law and testimony if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them” ”despise not prophesying, prove all things, hold fast that which is good” ”We know them by their fruits”.
I did read your reply a couple times, and I realized there are several points here and I think it will be hard to do a short response. So I hope you don’t mind my format of response here. Your quotes are in white, my reply is blue.
Unfortunately, as I compare the full text of scripture as those Bereans were apt to do, I conclude that these teachings within this conservative context stray so far from historic Christianity that they become, as the apostle Paul described in Galatians 1:8, another Gospel which is no Gospel at all.
Well, I would say the gospel is summed up in these words. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I believe that nominal Christianity itself has strayed from the faith delivered to the saints as Jude prophesied. The trinity was adopted as truth 400 years after Christ. The bible is very clear about who God is.
Out of these words in Galatians we can understand a few things in regards to the gospel. God is a father. He gave his son. This is his love for us. As Paul said in Galatians 1 himself.
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Paul didn’t know God was a Trinity. Otherwise he would have used the title “God” in reference to the father, son and holy spirit. Rather then limiting it to “God the father”. This is saying the same as John 3:16. These verses also refer to Christ as a separate individual known as the son of God and this implies the father as God. This is not to say Christ was not equal with his father. I will touch on that further on.
I would say that if we are Trinitarian this would be a different gospel. For instance if we said “God so loved the world” and God is a Trinity then we can’t refer to it as a he. But the bible says “he” gave his son. This clearly identifies God as the father and that’s exactly what Paul is saying in Galatians 1. Also did he give a son? Or did he give himself? Is he the literal son of God. There was a church in Jesus day questioning this fact. “If thou be the son of God?” they said. The question implied unbelief. It was the same question Satan asked. However the true church is built on this rock. That Christ is the son of God. And yes most of historic churchianity was wrong in Jesus day as well. There is nothing new under the sun.
I believe a fair amount of confusion could result from your handout because you have included a number of scriptures which in themselves present truth but lack in proper Biblical exegesis. I’ve noted from talking to many folks over the years that the most dangerous kind of deception comes from error that always rides on the back of truth.
I agree with the error mixed with truth. That is certainly a true statement. This is how Satan deceived the whole world. I guess I would have to say the same thing about Trinitarians. That a few texts have been misunderstood by them. The word is truth. And this is given for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. However that word never uses the title “God” once in reference to 3 beings at the same time. So this should really be enough for anyone seeking to know whether “He” is “three” or not.
Hopefully, without being offensive I’d like to address a couple of serious errors in my understanding that come out of the web site and your handout.
Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
I pray that I’m not an offence to you, as my response is merely from what God has done for me in giving his son. I believe there is one gospel and it is the power of God unto salvation.
In writing these thoughts David, I appreciate the comment you made, “If my faith didn’t stand up to the scripture I would certainly like to be exhorted.” So I’ve presented this material with exhortation in mind knowing that it is the Holy Spirit who imparts wisdom and understanding.
I agree, and I think you’ve seen who I believe that spirit to be. Our “Parakletos”. The advocate Jesus Christ in us, our hope of glory. Your intention seems to be that of seeking unity. And I appreciate that.
Point #1. Misunderstanding the nature of God.
The triune God does not mean 3 Gods. The Jehovah’s Witness falls into the same error.
You use basic math to show that 1+1+1does not equal 1 but 3. I suppose if we play the math game I could suggest that 1x1x1=1 which I think would be more accurate, for scriptures teach us that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. One what, three who's.
I would say there are many different understandings. However I don’t see that in scriptures. I see God as my father and Jesus father, my God and his God[John 20:17]. I believe in the “Father and son” as the bible teaches. The bible calls them two.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Interesting that John says “both”. Why does he not say all three?
Christ is the express image of God. Or in other words a “perfect copy” of God. Hebrews 1 is reference to his heavenly nature. By the way, JW’s have 2 major differences. 1. They believe Christ is another smaller god. 2. They believe he was created. And I would have to say there are many different views on the trinity. For instance some say there is “God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit”. 3 Gods, yet 1 God. And yes, I see what your saying. But consider this. You said God is “indivisible”. Using 1x1x1 this be the opposite of dividing. And in order for Him to be 3 he would have to divide himself into the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Am I not correct? I’m not trying to be smart about this by the way. I would rather not use an argument that is trying to get under someones skin. That is not my intention. The question is an honest one.
It is necessary to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.
The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think for themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. Once again, One what, three who's
Well, I’m sure I’m understanding your view here to a large degree. You believe God is a single being, in three persons. So that would be like me, you and Vern for instance. We could be one being, however three persons. Kind of like an office or team. And I’m pretty familiar with the verses that are used to prove this. I was a Trinitarian myself at one point. But I found it not to be scriptural. And it was a mystery no doubt about it. I was teaching the Trinity for awhile. But I was humbled by people who I talked to who had the spirit of God. And I was trying to show them the trinity in scripture. But the more I looked I realized who God was. He is the father of Jesus Christ. And when I saw this I really began to see God’s love. To see what God really gave.
I mean imagine this. If God is one being/three persons. Who gave his son? Did the father really give his son? Did he really have a son? Some say the Holy spirit impregnated Mary and that’s when he became a son. However this would mean the father is not the father, but the Holy Spirit is. This really skewed my view of what God gave. And I believe this doctrine does this to everyone. That’s why this is the first and great commandment. Because misunderstanding this can really make us misunderstand Gods love.
NOTE: I am not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. This would be the error of modalism practiced by the United Pentecostals. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this.
The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:
1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutable.
2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, is identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.
Well, to be frank. The bible is not teaching this. This is a doctrine that came some 400 years after the bible was written.
The Trinity doctrine was not always part of the religion of God’s people. On page 11 of the book, Handbook for Today’s Catholic, we read:The mystery of the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic Faith. Upon it are based all the other teachings of the Church… The Church studied this mystery with great care and, after four centuries of clarification, decided to state the doctrine in this way: in the unity of the Godhead there are three Persons,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…
Notice that it took 4 centuries after Christ for us to believe in a Trinity. Nowhere in scripture is the title “God” used in reference to the father son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere in scripture does it say “God the son”. Nowhere in scripture does it say “God the spirit”. But yet today these phrases are coined as if they could be found in scripture.
It took 4 centuries for a pagan church to kill a lot of saints and then introduce a different God that the fathers knew not. You might not agree but this was prophecied in Daniel 11:38, 39.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Another point: Romans 1:20 tells us that “... since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have clearly been understood through what has been made...”
I agree with this verse. His divinity and power are seen by the things made. However he is not the creature, but the creator. Let’s look at Romans 1 more closely to see who he is.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
His son is Jesus Christ who is he?
Rom 1:7 To all that be in
He is the father. I can’t disagree with Romans 1:20. His attributes are not nature. This would be pantheism. “Worshipping the creation rather then the creator”[Rom 1:25]. However his attributes of love can be seen in the things that are made. His creative power. For instance we see that things are brought forth after there kinds. There are no half breed mutants that prove evolution. But the Creator is clearly seen in the created.
So there should be evidence very close to us of such a concept of trinity (God revealing something about His basic nature) and considering our own life experience we very soon see in His creation:
Time-Past, Present, Future.
Space-Height, weight, depth
Matter-solid, liquid, gas
So creation itself shows us that we live in a universe of trinity of trinities if you will.
I’ve seen this before. But this reasoning is what I believe to be “philosophical reasoning”. How about the man and the woman. They were created in the image of God. There is only 2 of them. This would be a more biblical stance. The title “God” is not used in reference to a Trinity of persons. I’m sure even you yourself when you pray to God do not believe you are praying to three persons. But I’m sure you pray to the father. This is scriptural. Ask in his son’s name anything and he[the father] will give it according to his will. Scripture plainly states the LORD our God is one LORD. And that he sits on his throne in heaven. And Christ sits at his right hand. God and Christ are clearly two separate beings, individuals, persons.
Without taking the time to list all the references on the Trinity I would just refer you to my handout given out last Tuesday.
I have your handout. And I am considering writing a reply to it. As I believe that the truth shines when we reason it out according to the word of God. However reason was not how the Trinity was established. You’d be shocked at the blood shed in order to establish it.
Point #2 “Christ is God by nature but he is not the eternal God Himself.”
This seems contradictory for if you follow simple logic.
*God’s nature is eternal
*Christ is God by nature
* Thus Christ is eternal
But apart from using a logical technique, let’s consider the point you mention in John 17:3 that Christ Himself said in His prayer to the Father, “that this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God.” You conclude that Jesus is divorcing Himself from Deity by that statement. However, there’s a saying , “A text taken out of context becomes a pretext.” Simply put, we must read the entire verse and then the entire context-perhaps paragraph and chapter to correctly interpret the meaning. Directly following ‘only true God’, it says “and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” By placing Himself and the Father together as the source of eternal life, Christ affirms His own deity.
When you say “Christ is God by nature, thus Christ is eternal”. You are making a huge jump. For instance if God gave someone all the attributes of himself. We can’t say that there was not a time when that person, being or individual was not God by nature. Another problem is we cannot define “eternity”. It appears that it may have no beginning or end. But the bible does say Christ was begotten from everlasting. I can’t explain it. And I think it is beyond our comprehension. However Gods word said it happened and I believe it. I am fully justified by faith in Gods word.
I am not at all denying Christ’s equality with his father in his pre-existence. But I am denying the fact that Christ is part of a three in one God. Christ is referring to his father as the only true God. [John 17:1, 5]. That is the context. A prayer to his father. Jesus never prayed to the spirit. He never prayed to a Trinity. I do agree that it is eternal life to know Jesus Christ whom he sent as well. The bible says who Christ is. “The son of the living God”. “This is the rock on which the church is built. God being his father, not a trinity.
In fact every time it says Christ is the son. That implies God is the father. The title almost implicitly belongs to the father alone. You might say “God is a spirit”. Well I would advise to read the context on that. He is a spirit. But who is he??
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
If you read that carefully. You’ll see that spirit is the father. It is him that we are to worship in spirit and in truth. There is no other God but “he”. When I say God. I mean the father. When you say “God” who are you talking to or about? Are you talking about the same God as Paul, James, Jude, John, Peter and Jesus?
Note John 8:58-Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” This is a clear reference to Jesus’ eternal pre-existence. Since this is an attribute of God alone, this text is a forceful statement of Jesus’ deity. The present tense of the verb suggests the eternal present of God’s eternity. “I AM” is also reminiscent of God’s name in Ex. 3:14. The Jews certainly understood what Jesus was saying as they picked up stones to kill Jesus for they stoned people for saying they were God.
I don’t disagree with saying Christ said those words. Christ did say “I came in my fathers name”. He didn’t come in his own name. He said if he came in his own name the Pharisees would receive him. But Christ came in God’s name, not his own. Christ came in his fathers name in the OT. I’ll quote this from Acts 7. I’m not sure if you understand this but the word “Malak” is the Hebrew word for “Angel”. It’s also translated in the OT as “Messenger”. Christ is the “Malak” [messenger/angel] of the covenant[Mal 3:1]. He was in the bush. He was also talking to Abraham. I could go over several verses here. But I’ll just quote a couple. I have a great study on the angel of the covenant. This is the mediator. Christ himself.
Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
What did this angel say as the mediator of God?
Act 7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Don’t get me wrong. Christ is equal to God. He is not just a “malak”[angel]. He is supreme Malak[messenger] of God. He is above the angels as God is above the angels as he is made equal with God.
In reading The Truth Seekers I’m surprised that such statements as the following are made:
“What did Jesus mean when He said He was begotten? Jesus, speaking of Himself, said, “When there were no depths, I was brought forth [born]; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth [born]… Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” (Proverbs 8:24, 25, 30)
Now this is a text out of context as a pretext situation. Beginning at verse 1 in chapter 8 and right through the chapter the subject is wisdom. And it continues into chapter 9: 1-15 It sets up a couple of improbable points if in fact this section is talking about Jesus for we see that Wisdom has a feminine pronoun as well as masculine in Chapter 8.
That’s right. The Holy spirit also has feminine characteristics in the old testament. However “The Lord[Jesus] is that spirit”[2 Cor 3:17]. Often when referring to characteristics they are referred to in the feminine sense. Look at this prophecy. Notice it refers to a country. This does not imply Jesus is a country himself.
Hos 11:1 When
Matthew spoke of this verse as referring to the Messiah.[Matt 2:15] There are other verses that Matthew used similarly that seemed to have no referral directly to the Messiah. Especially this one which says “
Those verses in Proverbs 8 can only refer to Christ. I’ll try to demonstrate this with the scriptures in as short a space as I can. Referring to Wisdom it is said:
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
So we see here that there is one who is “wisdom” to us. Christ. However this might not be enough. Let’s look at Proverbs 8.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Setup from everlasting. [8:23]
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
From the beginning[8:23]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
So the Christ was there in the beginning as Proverbs 8 says. Before anything made was made. Setup from everlasting. A little more proof is…
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
These verses I find amazing. He was there. It says he was brought forth[begotten]. If it is referring to someone else. Then God has more then one “begotten” who was with God in the beginning when he prepared the heavens. That would create several contradictions. But I believe God said to his son “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”.
He is the only begotten. The counsel was between them “Both”[Zech 6:14]
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So to say the characteristic wisdom is feminine and called a she in scripture I agree. So is the characteristic the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that it is not Christ.
Moving on -another statement: “According to the Bible, Jesus Christ was begotten, which literally means born, before anything was created—long before God sent Him into the world. (See Hebrews 1:1-9; Colossians 1:15; John 3:16, 17; 18:37; and 1 John 4:9.) How He was begotten is not for us to know, but God wants us to realize that He and His Son have a close, genuine, father-son relationship that is not just a role or an act.”
We need to be careful here. Some groups take this as Jesus was created like humans are created and then are born. Begotten in humans is one thing –we reproduce humanity which is finite but God in His eternal nature in some sense produces eternal nature so as one theologian explained God the Son has forever proceeded from the eternal Father and the Holy Spirit has eternally proceeded from both the Father and the Son.
Well, I would have to say that he was literally begotten. In fact just before his prayer to his father in John 17. He explains this fact. And his disciples understand that this is not a parable or symbolic or eternally happening. But he is saying he was literally begotten in eternity past.
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
This is not a proverb. This is literal what Jesus is saying. The disciples understood this. He says the same thing again a short time later in his prayer that they understood.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
This is not something that is continually happening. The theologian who said he is eternally being begotten is in error. Jesus is speaking in the perfect past tense.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
But Colossians 1:15-18 gives us some pretty interesting thoughts too. He is the firstborn of all creation. Paul is not saying as the JW’s say that the Son was the first created being who then created the rest of the universe. In the Old Testament, a firstborn would be the principal heir of an estate (Deut. 21:17) Used of Christ, the term means that he has such honour and dignity, not that he was the oldest child in a family. King David the youngest brother and the nation of
I don’t agree with the JW’s in that Christ was created. And they change the words to say Christ created “All other things” adding words to the scripture. I believe the word is plainly describing when Christ was begotten. It says before every creature was created. Therefore Christ cannot be a creature or created. He is the creator of all things. This power he received from his father. Christ created all to the glory of God the father. I don’t disagree that Christ is also the heir of his father. “He hath by inheritance a more excellent name then the angels”[Heb 1:4]. He is the Prince of life. The Prince of the Kings of the earth. Soon to be crowned “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”[Dan 7:9-14, Rev 14:14]. I don’t disagree the term is used in reference to the heir. However I believe just as I quoted above that it is no proverb but he literally came forth from the father. I believe Gods word as it is. And to be honest you know we are justified by faith. That faith is a perfect trust in Gods word. And if we are honest, God will reveal our errors and guide us into all truth[Phil 3:15, John 8:32]
Without detracting from the glory the pre-existent Son already had with the Father, the New Testament teaches that Christ’s resurrection marks out for Him a new and higher standing, and wins for Him an even greater name (Acts 13:33,34; Rom. 1:4; Ephesians 1:20-23; Phil. 2:1-11; Heb. 1:4-5). By virtue of His resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ is Lord of the universe that was created by Him, that He has always sustained, and which He has now redeemed.
Well, I will actually post a few verses you are talking about. As I don’t believe that I detract at all from Christ or God. I believe as you do that Christ was equal with God. I believe however, God gave him this equality[Matt 28:18, John 5]. I believe the son cannot do, nor would he do anything without the father. Neither should we. But I will make a point here, because I really believe that if we are Trinitarian we are detracting from the son. Because we detract from who the father is. And if we bring the father down. We bring Christ down as Christ was equal with his father. If the father didn’t really have a son to give, or didn’t really give his literal son. This is a severe detraction of his love and belittling of his character. And it also makes God a liar.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
There is a record here. The record that the father, the word and the spirit bear is that “God”[the father] gave his son. The record these three bear is God is an individual. A personal father who loves his children. The bible tells us who is a liar. And I’m sure if you have any understanding of Adventist theology you will know who I believe is antichrist.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
God is not a liar. God gave his son. Truly he was the son of God.
Looking at Phillipians 2. Here is what it says. I’m sure you’ve read it many times as you just quoted it. But I’d like you to take a more careful look at it.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
That is Christ. His pre-existent form. Before he was made in the likeness of a man.[v7]. He was equal with God. He was in the form of God. This is fact. And this is the same as John 1:1 is saying.
You brought up my quote about how I said “Christ was in the nature of God, but not the eternal God himself” and that is true.
Let me explain using an analogy of how John is speaking. Looking at John 1:1 is similar to Philippians 2:6. Phi 2:7 can be compared to John 1:14.
But my point is on these rare verses that seem to refer to Christ as the eternal God himself. I’ll explain it this way. God has a nature. Men have a nature. We were created in the image of God. However after sinning we marred that nature and now we have a different nature. However, please understand John knew that his God was the father of Jesus Christ.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Now Christ was with God in the beginning. I’ll compare it to Adam and Eve as they were created in the image of God. However there nature is a different nature then Gods’ nature. They have “human nature”. Let’s look at John 1:1 understanding this principle of the nature of God and of man.
“In the beginning was the woman, and the woman was with human, and the woman was human”. This is the same intention with John 1:1 about Christ and his nature.
He was equal with God. He was in the form God. He was with God, and was God by nature.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
He has declared his father. V14 says he is begotten of the father. This verse says he is the begotten son of God. The implication is God is his father. No man has seen God at any time. Christ has made his father known to us. Because Christ is the “Express image of his father” Christ was in the form of his father. Christ had the same nature of his father. But Christ is not the eternal God himself.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
You also quoted Hebrews 1. I will go over that as well.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
God is clearly the father here. Notice the next verse He[the father] speaks through his son. Just by saying “his son” implies that the title “God” belongs to the father. Only a father has a son.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Notice in that verse he sits on the right hand of the majesty on high. The question again arises “Who is the majesty on high?” It is still the father of course.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
He has the nature of God by inheritance. And again in verse 8 that title is given to his son. As this nature is what his son possesses. However there is only one God the father, and he is the only true God, and there is no other God but him.
His son is the express image of him, his son has made him known. Through his son we can know the father’s love. I could go more into the struggle in heaven, and how much our father really gave. But really, this is more of a basic answer on the doctrine of God and his son. And I don’t normally stand up to something unless it is truly something that can hurt our salvation. I enjoy bible study. And when we are quoting the word of God. That is great. But we really should read the word of God as it says and not try to read something into it that isn’t there. I really tried to give short answers in this. There was a lot here. And when a person is truly searching I will provide an answer in meekness and fear.
Many times when I talk to people they begin to see the contradictions and often they either re-think there view or reject it and stop talking to me. However, normally they stop talking not because I’m dishonest, nor have the wrong spirit. Nor because I am truly searching Gods word, but because it’s not the traditional view of the churches over the centuries, and there is a certain fear in many I believe of “not fitting in”. I felt the same way for awhile.
And what I believe is not the traditional view of the visible churches. But it is the view of the bride of Christ. Sometimes they fear me. Because I am not a traditionalist. However, I follow after my savior, and many of the other prophets. They were all outcasts according to the traditional churches.
Jesus said the Jews followed traditions in vain making void the word of God. Peter talked about the traditions of the fathers. So did Paul. It was never good.
Hopefully David, I’ve presented some thoughts that will be meaningful in knowing and growing in the Lord Jesus.
You did. And really I appreciate your reply and hope that you will reconsider your position or at least be willing to understand that it is possible for entire Christianity to fall away from the true God. The same happened in Elijah’s day. And it was ignorant and unknown sin. Not willful. They didn’t know. I know this because they sacrificed a bull for the congregation[Num 15]. It was accepted by God. That meant that they didn’t know that they were worshipping the wrong God[BAAL].
If you have a chance I invite you to consider reading “The Elijah Message” on my website. I believe it will be very eye opening. Everything parallels.
http://www.elijah144.com/theelijahmessage.htm
Also, if you would like I’m open to answering any questions in regards to the Trinity. There is also a section on my site with answers to common scripture objections to the truth about God.
http://www.elijah144.com/answerstotrinitarians.htm
The website is a work in progress. It has been up for 6 months now. However it’s growing and God is blessing it.
Very briefly, the following may be helpful in understanding parts of our last group discussion.
I would suspect the conservative SDA teaching if I heard you correctly would oppose the following:
· Man is justified by faith in Jesus Christ apart from the deeds of the Law (Romans 3:28; 4:6; Galatians 2:16; 3:10-14).
Well, it’s hard to be to brief about this. But yes we are “justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law”. However, many misunderstand what this means. Look at this verse.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
People who go to the extreme say Paul meant we are “not” doers of the law who are justified. We are not justified by our works. Nor by the deeds we do. Many do good works in his name and try to justify themselves by there works. It’s not of ourselves. We are his workmanship, created to do good works which he hath before ordained that we should walk in them. He ordained them before the cross. We are not justified by them. True faith lives by the word of God. If thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments. If you love him, keep the commandments. On 2 laws is the whole law fulfilled. Love God with all your heart strength and might and love your neighbor as yourself.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
This is love. Your not going to do these things when you love. Your not gonna worship other Gods, take his name in vain, make idols or break his Sabbath which was ordained at Creation and is why Moses said “Remember in 6 days God created”. And “it was made for man” as Jesus said. Not for Jews. Love fulfills the law.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I love his law for it is my delight. It gives me understanding. However it doesn’t justify me. I am justified by faith in his promises which he keeps and fulfills through me when I accept that his word does what it says.
· The Law of Moses [the ceremonial and moral aspects] has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. By His perfect life He met all the requirements of the moral aspect of the Law; by His death He fulfilled all the ceremonial ordinances which prefigured His incarnation and sacrifice (Romans 5:10; Colossians 2:16-17).
Ceremonial aspects including the sacrifices were changed. We have a high priest in heaven presenting his blood on our behalf.[Heb 8:1-3]. And I see the early Christian church in the book of Acts keeping Sabbath and celebrating Holy days. So I would say that only the sacrificial ceremonies were nailed to the cross as well as the Levitical priestly laws. The moral law in Deutoronomy is the law that was on the side of the ark. I believe it applies today.
· The law or commandment which Christians are called upon to follow is the law of love (e.g. Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10).
I agree with this. It is love that fulfills the law. Jesus our perfect example fulfilled the law. And if we love we will fulfill the law. Not by our works, but God will work in us to do his good pleasure. You said “Jesus fulfilled the law”. Does this mean the law is destroyed or abolished.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
I wonder sometimes with such clarity these verses say not to think that any of the law is destroyed or passed away. He says not to let the though enter you that anything was destroyed. But I understand what you are trying to say. Most of Christianity tries to throw Gods Sabbaths in with the Ceremonial law as if they were “Against us”. But the bible clearly says the “Sabbath was made for man”. Not against them.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus actually magnified the law. He made it honorable. Not by works, but by 100% faith in his father he fulfilled it. And if your teaching people that the law is passed away or abolished or nailed to the cross, then you may have to account for that. I understand you may be doing this by tradition as Sunday is tradition. Many throughout the ages have kept Sunday unbeknownst that Sabbath is the Seventh Day from even to even. And it is blessed. Truly a day that God has blessed.
One last point. Moses was not under the law after he found grace. Neither was David under the law until he commited sin. This is not New Testament theology Paul is teaching. If we read Hebrews 11 we Find that Moses was justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law which he was a doer of.
The point about “Under the law” is that it doesn’t mean that people who keep the law are under the law. The just are doers of the law and they are not under the law.
I could do a whole expose on this. I have a great little book on this. But just notice that when Paul said “Under the law” he meant “Under the condemnation of the law”. Let me explain:
Let’s say your on a highway. The speed limit is 80k. Your doing 79. Now as your keeping the speed limit you are keeping the law. Using faith in this matter, you trust that the limit is 80 because it a law that is meant to keep you safe from harm, or a possible accident. There is a curse to the law. You are keeping the law here, not under the law.
But then you speed up to 120. You drive by an officer. And he nails you. You are now under the law. He takes you to the prison house. Holds you in jail for a while. You are still under the condemnation of that law. You have broken the law. A person who doesn’t break the law is not under the law. But you are under that law. And you have no pardon for breaking it. The government here is strict. Your penalty for speeding is death. Then someone comes along and says “I’ll take his penalty”. That person was made under the law for you, that he might redeem you who is under the law. After being redeemed from this. Redeemed from your penalty of the second death. Christ has taken your place.
Let’s look at a couple verses.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
When we read the ten commandments we see what the law says. This Is how we know what sin is. When we break that law of speeding, then we know there is a law. We now have a penalty to pay. But we are redeemed by God’s grace in giving his son for our penalty. So Paul knew sin was breaking Gods law. So did John [1 John 3:4].
Now we’ve been redeemed from under the law. Will we break the law now?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin[break the law], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
God forbid, we will not break the law, because we are not under the law. I don’t understand what you would consider sin except the law showed us our sin. But Paul is clearly saying we won’t break the law. Because sin is breaking the law. Paul only knew sin because of what the law said.
I tried to be short. J But I like to be thorough. I’m sure I could have been a lot more thorough.
I’ll leave you with a last word from Ephesians 4 and some characteristics about this one united faith.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
One faith, and that one faith has one God the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. And unity of this faith is based on knowledge that Christ is the son of God which knowledge can turn us into a perfect man. There is one body, not 30,000. And one spirit. A kindred spirit, which is Holy, just, and true. It is the character of the father and son.
Grace,
J....
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue, DAVID
